wireless network shit

[Bignick]

anyone know anythin bout wireless networks?

im settin one up with a mate who lives about 4km away.

we need to know whats good and whats shit in terms of hardware.
or any tips would be awesome...

[Moo]

http://www.ballaratwireless.net/modules/news/

[cvt]

4km, what kind of line of sight?
without line of sight = impossible, or repeaters.
are you going to be making antennas yourself.

going budget (cheap stuff, senao home, or linksys, bit of coax, home made biquads on austar dishes)

or commercial (senao external, pro built parabolics and biquad pickups)

remember line of sight is necessary, line of sight doesn't just include seeing the other person, it includes the frensel zone.

so tell me.

how high can you go.
is there any obstacles in the way (trees, power polls, hills, buildings (what are they made of, how far from the end)
is the land flat.

so on, and I can tell ya the bare minimums needed.


now..

802.11b
or 802.11g

you will save quite a lot by going b, no so much the cost of the equivelent products, but by default, B equipment is better.
the sensitivity at 11 is even usually better on a b than a g unit, and tx power is commonly higher.


anyway, throw me as much info as ya want, answer them few questions, and I'll help ya out.

.


but a simple way to get started.

cheapest gear.
linksys WAP11

better gear.
Anything made by cisco
Anything made by senao (lot of rebrands)

do a search for: home made biquad pickup 2.4ghz
or similar..
for buying antennas, freenet antennas, google for them, you'll find them


remember, belkin is pure rubbish, as are most of the home gear, there designed to 'just' make a link thruout a house.
and now G's so popular, people are having to put better antennas on it just to get a good link thru the house.


remember, 10km links are easy, but a 40Meter link is near impossible...
get the gear right, and you'll be in luck, do it wrong, and you'll have nothing.

places for gear.

melbourne wireless
techtopia
freenet antennas

use google.

[Joshu]

Originally posted by Moo
http://www.ballaratwireless.net/modules/news/

These guys won't help you with what you want.

[Bignick]

Line of sight is good, just a tree, but we should be able to get over it.
We're using old austar dishes,

i live in clarendon st, and my mate near the junior campus of damascus, so not much in the way.

and i guess the cheaper the better

[Joshu]

Originally posted by Bignick
my mate near the junior campus of damascus

Sputnick, ya?



The tree might play serious fuckies with the wireless connection if it's running at 2.4GHz.

[Bignick]

Originally posted by Joshu
Sputnick, ya?



The tree might play serious fuckies with the wireless connection if it's running at 2.4GHz.

ya, and there is always chainsaws

[*NoN*Da]rY*]

or you could just ring bark the tree ;) less obvious than a chain saw :)

[-=PIMPIN=-]

Dude i just did a link from my place too my muns place witch is about 1/2 a km away. I am aswell using austar dishs too. I use linksys wap11 AP in a wireless bridge mode thats the best way too do it too. It worked great at the start last few days it went shit but i fix it. (fucking dish move in the wind ) but with the austar dish just make sure that the lmb is in the right spot ok.Do some test before putting it up.(just ask cvt what we did too test the dishs out ) But yes just ask cvt about how to do it that dick head no's what its all about(fuck that just about killed me to say that) but dude good luck with it

[cvt]

Originally posted by Bignick
Line of sight is good, just a tree, but we should be able to get over it.
We're using old austar dishes,

i live in clarendon st, and my mate near the junior campus of damascus, so not much in the way.

and i guess the cheaper the better

line of site = 10meters height clearance in center...

now, unless you go 10meters high (plus height of obstacle in center) each end (from ground), which I doubt you can, you really need to tell me how high you can go (both ends) and how high the obsacles are (biggest one closest to center)

if you think going that high seems stupid, look at most long links, there from a mountain, down onto ground, or a 50m or so high point, or across water.. it is a sad fact, but if you get the right stuff, it can be done, but no good going out and buying a bunch of wap11's if you find out there not gonna have enough sensitivity.

i'd say, as for the antenna, still build a biquaq pickup, its just a matter of if you will need a dish, and if you do, how big the dish will have to be.

[BlueShadow]

Hmm mind if I interrupt..... Line of Site you say... WRONG, me and my BOSS we Proved it, we have a guy who has 2 hills in the way and trees, of the Access Point and we have him connected at 50% Signal Strength and 70% Communications Quailty.... Now thats just put a kink in your Line of Site plans aint it...

As for Trees, Pine trees are the only things that matter, really cause there so thick... But trees do stop signal if you point straight into the trunk of one..

4km hey, No linksys....thats like murder..... Senoas the way to go, I think around 120, you have have some nice F100's at you doorstep, thats about 15km Parabolic to Parabolic..

So cheap is not best more trouble then its worth... about $100 you can get some hills 11db gain dishes... But how much u looking at spending we always have shitty equipment sitting around work gaining dust?

[Joshu]

Originally posted by Bignick
and i guess the cheaper the better

[cvt]

Originally posted by Blueshadow
Hmm mind if I interrupt..... Line of Site you say... WRONG, me and my BOSS we Proved it, we have a guy who has 2 hills in the way and trees, of the Access Point and we have him connected at 50% Signal Strength and 70% Communications Quailty.... Now thats just put a kink in your Line of Site plans aint it...


wow... you mean you had % signal..
what ever happened to the world standard of using dB as a signal strength.. lets not start this again ok...
and no, it hasn't put anything thru my line of site fact, what I saids right, you still have defraction do you not, maybe it was deffraction comming into play... but nooo.... thats impossible... not defraction, that only happens with sound, and radio waves... and light.. not microwaves right?


idiot.


Originally posted by Blueshadow

As for Trees, Pine trees are the only things that matter, really cause there so thick... But trees do stop signal if you point straight into the trunk of one..


everything attenuates the signal, pines are worst of teh trees

Originally posted by Blueshadow

4km hey, No linksys....thats like murder..... Senoas the way to go, I think around 120, you have have some nice F100's at you doorstep, thats about 15km Parabolic to Parabolic..


linksys would do it easy with line of sight... but hey, line of site is over trees on a hill, so you would need that extra 100mw output and extra 10dB sensitivity wouldn't you!

Originally posted by Blueshadow

So cheap is not best more trouble then its worth... about $100 you can get some hills 11db gain dishes... But how much u looking at spending we always have shitty equipment sitting around work gaining dust?

and we successfully built a 25dBi gain antenna (was meant to be 29dBi)..

i think saving the money on the senao and spending a bit of time building a nice high gain antenna works out a bit cheaper doesn;t it?

admitadely, senao kick arse, I have some of there gear myself..

but where only talking about 4km, damn man, why spend 3x as much on both ends if ya don;t have to?

$100 for a 11dB gain dish.. dude.
$130 new for 19dBi parabolic dish
$150 new for a 24dBi parabolic dish

why save $50 each end on a dish, when in return, you have to pay much much more in the AP's?

.

actually, I better clarify what I said..

as a commercial set up, or reccomendation by a company.
a couple senao's, at about $250 each
and a couple parabolics at $100 each would be the way to tackle it.

but theres no need for that expence..
a couple wap11's at $90 each
and a couple hommade biquads would cost maybe $15 each
he already has austar dishes to use them on.
and even if his pickups weren't perfect, they should still be about 20dBi once on the dish, if not much more, like I said, lewis and me got 25dBi out of the one we built.

wap11's arn;t commercial quality, there home gear.. but they are fairly reliable, have a -84dB sensitivity, and a 100mW output.

the senaos have 125mW output (pay more, get a 200mW output one)
and -97 sensitivity.
plus they are more reliable, but he wants a nice cheap link, not a commercial mission-critical link.

we've managed a 3.5km link with a 12dBi omni, and a 5dBi omni, line of site with most of frensel zone broken, and still picked up with -89dB from a AP @ 18mW

2x 12dBi and 2x linksys could do that easy, but remember, going directional cuts down noise, so not as much buffer needed.

[BlueShadow]

Hey Man I was just giving my option, yes I know it is diffraction, ohh and the fact were using a hills 24db gain annetta, ohh plus the 1W ampilfier, you know it dose help...

Oh yes Linksys would do the job, but are they reliable... Hmm NO!!!

Yes everything affects the signal, but we have one person connected through alot of trees and she is getting good signal

Do what evers best for them... Giving my option thats all...

But better make it all legal now, get ur wireless licence, and dont break the 5W transmission law and all. Gotta convert all your DB gain and all.. or get a speical licence to break the 5W law....

[cvt]

yes, I know, thats why I ammeneded the bottom, the advice you gave was correct, but an extremely dear option.

the wap11's are plenty reliablenough for this application, and its not that hard to power cycle them if they do lock up, which we have not yet had happen.



go ahead, be illegal ;)
break the laws, thats what there made for, otherwise they wouldn't exist ;)

if you wanna stay legal
5 watts = 37dBm
the linksys claim 20dBm, or 100mW
ther actual is less that that (my senao 200mW is actually 167mW, its common for all makes/models), find out what its actual is, on the newest ones, channel 1 is 41mw, and channel 13 is 50mw, linear power thru the channels.
so if you use channel 11, you are outputting about 17dBm.
so in that case, taking into account the loss thru the connectors, cable, you'll lose 1 or 2 dB.
so will be able to use a 21-22dBi antenna.

although all of our links are legal (had no need to go higher) I know some that aren't, and have been up for years, and unless you get dobbed in, or cause issues with surrounding equipment, and they make a complaint, the chance of them aver catching you, in a place like ballarat is very slim.
but if you did go over 5W, making sure everyone inbetween is not having any issues would be a good idea ;)

.

oh, also, to be legal.
it needs to be tested before being implemented.
and all antennas, cables, conenctions, need to be certified, and not just done by a backyarder, or even an average techi in the area.
its all bullshit, don;t cause any issues, and dont be stupid (using amplifiers). you'll be right.

i don;t think I even know of 1 commercial link thats legal, they may pass transmission laws, but that doesn;t meant legal.

so why get tied up over 2 or 3dB, when if they wanted to cause trouble, could get you on everything else involved in the setup aswell?




explained,

look on the bottom of ur wireless gear, access point, so on, see that FCC thingo....
unless they've apporved your cables, plugs, antennas, pickups, and everything between, your setup is illegal.
its required for all wireless deviced...
go on, even pick up the receiver for your cordless mouse, its there aswell.

so why be legal, all of a sudden your $100 antenna and self-installwould dissapear!

the laws are there, if they want to get you, they'll get you one way or another, so just don;t cause interference, and they won't get you.

[Moo]

Originally posted by cvt

the laws are there, if they want to get you, they'll get you one way or another,

Well, i dont have 5 bucks in my pocket, so i could get charged with vagrantcy. Go figure.

[dominatrix]

do u have id though? are you out on the street?

just a question... why does cvt seem to know all? i thought i had some idea what was going on in the computeringness world... but you are insane man!!!

[cvt]

i used to make a fair mint, and...
and instead of playing games, I spent time researching.
I started with computers before I can remember, and I worked with a local techi when I was 8 yrs old, and before that he gave me old computers to stuff around with and learn on.
the first things I did with my computer was learn Batch files, then basic programming.
since then I stuffed around with heaps of computers, built some specifically to destroy, to find weaknesses, and why those parts failes, built some with the intention of finding faults, intentially broke things, to find out how to diagnose, and fix, and I have a huge interest in the electrical side of things, so instead of understanding what happens with software, and when you plug things in, I learnt how the cmos gates work, why they work that way, why the power flows that way, so on.

I don't know it all, theres heaps I don't know, but I continually try to learn things as they come out.

as for the wireless, lots of reading on theorys, then going out and doing test setups to prove it, and understand it better.

if I don't know/understand something, you'll prolly just not see me comment.
(occasionally I'm wrong, who isn't.
on this forum I also show a lot of 'personal opinion' which is usually an overexagerated fact :p )
but I will then go and try and reproduce the problem, and research into it so I do understand it.

just my area of interest man :)
plus i'm a rediculously quick learner at this shit.. but make me fix a car.. and you'll never have a running vehicle again :p
no matter how hard I try at doing 'phisical work', like enginnering, mechanical, etc.. I just fail, and have no idea.
I get lost going to ballarat no matter how many times I been there (just ask kenny how many times I rang him cos I been lost)
so what I gain in one area, I've lost in another :p

[dominatrix]

thank god for the internet :D

[cvt]

indeed, otherwise I would have NO life :p

atleast this way I got a nerds life :p

[Bignick]

all i was expecting was: 'so and so' is good, but dont get 'such and such.'

thanks heaps dude, youve helped out a fuck load.

[dominatrix]

ok, netgear is good, but also expensive.

[cvt]

well, if you want a simple so and so..

a garenteed link will be.

go as high as you can
use your austar dishes
http://martybugs.net/wireless/biquad/
build those pickups for it.

and use the senao AP's as suggested by blueshadow

but if you could fill in all those questions, I may be able to tell you cheaper gear to buy, theres no garentee linksys would do it, without knowing them details, so the only way about that is get something iwth 15dBi better sensitivity.

everythings good in its place dom, but netgear don;t offer wireless bridge, wireless repeater, or any of the other, except in there extremely dear, and almost unfindable class, in which case, the senao is a cheaper and better option.

[-=PIMPIN=-]

here you go i got some pics.
this is the antenna we build cost $15 and 1 hour too build.
best antenna i got and i 3 diff ones too use.
Dude cheap is what he wants so 2 wap11's plus 20 m coax plus 4 plugs plus 2 pigtails plus 2 antena will set you back about $500 and still we have not add the masks into that yet and if you use senao add about a extra $260 and both will do the same job. So if you got a spare $1000 cool do your link man but i no what ap i would use (wap11)

[BlueShadow]

hmmm nice work there with that pimping, and with the website CVT.... we have 4 sat dishes at work were looking at converting, I shall use that website. If we had time and could make them look professional we could save a shit load, making homemade quads. but we dont, so we use hills 24db gain attennas

[cvt]

making them look professional is something that can be done, and they can also be built simpler, neater, and cheaper, but only if you have the gear.. which I do. and I have been considering making some 'professional built' ones, as the prices they retail for, which ours would be identical to, leaves plenty of room for small numbers to be sold competitevly.

[BlueShadow]

mmmm, we might be intrested, if they can slot into the grid wire dishes, which we can make ourselfs...

You make Power over Ethernet Adapters too?

and we also get alot of senoa F200 Deluxes in for $220 each